[MK]

mike and I are currently discussing an overhaul in the rules and one of the things that came up was Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sonic 3 I will not get into right now, but I'd like to raise the issue of Mushroom Hill Zone in S&K vs. S3K.

I want to merge those 3 games into one chart. Note, again, not about Sonic 3 right now, that's for later. But in regards to Sonic & Knuckles, there is only a SINGLE difference between the games: The start of Mushroom Hill Act 1. It's shorter in Sonic & Knuckles due to the lack of the intro. I think this is a prime opportunity to completely ban Sonic & Knuckles and force Sonic 3 & Knuckles for competition in those zones.

Sound stupid? Please tell me. Also note, if you own Sonic & Knuckles, but not Sonic 3, you can still compete in all the OTHER zones as they are in fact identical. You're probably wondering why I'd suggest something like this but, I want to. I think it'd help make TSC more standardized...but that may be hopelessly silly, so....

A second suggestion: Allow Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but have a seperate listing for the versions with and without an intro. I imagine few if ANY people here will vote for option 2, which I consider ideal; most will probably vote 1 or 3. I prefer 3 over 1. What do y'all think?

[General Throatstomper]

ODDBALL OPTION 2

I don't see how this is any different than version differences in other games, specifically Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. Unless you're suggesting we institute separate charts for those as well, what's the point? 

[MK]

ODDBALL OPTION 2

I don't see how this is any different than version differences in other games, specifically Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. Unless you're suggesting we institute separate charts for those as well, what's the point? 

I'd like to rectify those as well. Perhaps seperate charts for levels with changes. But this is about S&K for now :P

[P.P.A.]

Leave it the way it is. Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were released as different games, and even if they were once planned to be one, they were not.
That and with the exception of Hydrocity I don't like any of Sonic 3's zones (Ice Cap Zone BGM is awesome though), so while I might get into Sonic & Knuckles alone some day, it being on one chart with Sonic 3 would put me off majorly.

[CosmicFalcon]

If the only single difference is that intro, I think separate charts is ridiculous, as the top times are going to differ simply by that intro time.

I also think it is ridiculous to force the longer times (i.e. with the intro) when we already have a chart populated by times that are, assumedly, without the intro.

I think it is fine the way it is. It is similar to the DC/GC split, HOWEVER, if you have access to S3K, you assumedly have access to S&K alone (either because you have the cartridges, or it is on a compilation, or you use ROMs). As such, if you're going to force one variation of MHZ1 it should be the one which has the minimal requirements, i.e. just S&K. I wanted to word that better but I hope you know what I mean.

As such, I would recommend leaving the two games separate. After all, as much as people want to refer to them as one game, they are really two. And if you were to merge them it implies they cannot be used individually.

ps. Does Tails' MHZ1 have the intro bit?

[MK]

Leave it the way it is. Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were released as different games, and even if they were once planned to be one, they were not.
That and with the exception of Hydrocity I don't like any of Sonic 3's zones (Ice Cap Zone BGM is awesome though), so while I might get into Sonic & Knuckles alone some day, it being on one chart with Sonic 3 would put me off majorly.

Being on the same chart is an issue? XD

Well, perhaps we should ban S3K instead and keep S3 and S&K seperate...would that be a better option?

[P.P.A.]

Being on the same chart is an issue? XD

Yeah. Because assuming I'd compete in S&K but not S3, half the chart would be empty and I wouldn't be in the total times list.

Also what CF said.

[CosmicFalcon]

PPA might be put off submitting for S&K if he doesn't want to submit for S3 because having half a game filled in is a lot weaker than filling in a whole chart. S3K would make a very big chart.

I don't see any need to ban S3K. The only difference is an impedance on MHZ1 attacking, so if anyone is seriously TAing they will use S&K for that. I don't see the need to only allow separate or only allow locked-on.

[MK]

er, nvm banning S3K. That would disallow Tails and Knux in certain zones for no reason.

So the only issue is, do we split MHZ?

[Stefan]

ODDBALL OPTION 2

I don't see how this is any different than version differences in other games, specifically Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic Adventure 2/Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. Unless you're suggesting we institute separate charts for those as well, what's the point? 

I'd like to rectify those as well. Perhaps seperate charts for levels with changes. But this is about S&K for now :P

Nearly every level has a slight change in sa2:b/sadx. I don't think putting people on an even MORE unfair competition level because they don't own both systems is the way to go. Making it so each level is counted multiple times over will makes people have to pull a record run twice. Those without a console will get an unfair shafting of points for not having it. it doesn't make sense.

[EngiNerd]

Do I know you MK?  You seem familiar, and you seem like you've been here longer than I have.  Yet you only have 20 posts.
As for the chart splitting ... definitely don't set Sonic 3 entirely on its own.  It removes the Knuckles charts, and the level select for Sonic 3 is a PAIN.  I don't know about splitting Mushroom Hill 1, but if you do that, then a fair number of other levels need splitting as well - Launch Base 2 comes immediately to mind (without S&K, the Eggmobile cutscene doesn't pause the timer, and the absolutely annoying end-of-Sonic-3 boss is intact).  I think there's also an issue with Carnival Night but it escapes me at the moment.

[MK]

Do I know you MK?  You seem familiar, and you seem like you've been here longer than I have.  Yet you only have 20 posts.
As for the chart splitting ... definitely don't set Sonic 3 entirely on its own.  It removes the Knuckles charts, and the level select for Sonic 3 is a PAIN.  I don't know about splitting Mushroom Hill 1, but if you do that, then a fair number of other levels need splitting as well - Launch Base 2 comes immediately to mind (without S&K, the Eggmobile cutscene doesn't pause the timer, and the absolutely annoying end-of-Sonic-3 boss is intact).  I think there's also an issue with Carnival Night but it escapes me at the moment.

If there are more than a handful of changes I may have to change my tactics on this...I just want to make competition more fair and have more solid rules. And, banning S3K was a dumb idea and will not work. The Sonic 3 level select can be accessed by a savestate that could be added to an archive on the site.

As for familiarity, I have been with TSC for over 2 years (or at least close to it). I simply do not post much on the forums, I'm almost always on IRC though.

[eredani]

There is simply no viable reason to list the same act twice just because one of two valid versions has a bit worse starting position, nor to unnecessarily force the use of only that one version. As has always been the case in competition when you're trying to get the best stat that's legitimately possible, you just use the more advantageous version of the game when you have access to both. Not to mention that anyone who has S3&K should pretty much already have access to S&K alone as a prerequisite, which completely voids any point in discerning between the two. Any "unfairness" between them is a non-issue here.

On an ironic note, I only now realise that in S&K alone, MH1 Knuckles also has a further starting position than in S3&K, just as Sonic does. And I only used S3&K for TAing MH1K since I hadn't tested it out in S&K, so this means that the time record can go down by 4 seconds. I wonder which version SkyLights used...

[Magnezone]

...

*twiddles thumbs*

[DAgreatest255]

Its just my opinion, but I think they should because the people who tryed it later on, maybe can't use some tricks that can be against the rules now. I don't really mind because I don't even do speedruns, or anything in this game.

[Spinballwizard]

I believe eredani nailed it on the head here.

There's no reason. Especially since Knux's part is relatively simple. Sonic takes a huge time dive due to the Knuckles delay.

Either way it's just stupid, either way you slice it.

It is also notable that it isn't the only version difference. In S3 alone Sonic and Tails gain no benefit from using the screenwrap glitch because there's no boss on the lower section, and in theory (i.e. don't try it at TSC) it's possible to complete Ice Cap 2 in under 5 seconds. Plus, in one version (can't remember which), the timer temporarily stops after the first Launch Base 2 boss (again, for Sonic/Tails) until you reach the second one, plus S3 alone has the third one.

Long story short, don't change anything.

[MK]

I believe eredani nailed it on the head here.

There's no reason. Especially since Knux's part is relatively simple. Sonic takes a huge time dive due to the Knuckles delay.

Either way it's just stupid, either way you slice it.

It is also notable that it isn't the only version difference. In S3 alone Sonic and Tails gain no benefit from using the screenwrap glitch because there's no boss on the lower section, and in theory (i.e. don't try it at TSC) it's possible to complete Ice Cap 2 in under 5 seconds. Plus, in one version (can't remember which), the timer temporarily stops after the first Launch Base 2 boss (again, for Sonic/Tails) until you reach the second one, plus S3 alone has the third one.

Long story short, don't change anything.

I see, there are more differences. Either way, the community has spoken :P

[Bilan]

If it takes you 5 seconds to beat IC2, you're doing it wrong >_>

1 second is easy,  isnt too hard <_<

[Crowbar]

Can't you skip the act1 boss entirely for zero?

[Spinballwizard]

If it takes you 5 seconds to beat IC2, you're doing it wrong >_>

1 second is easy,  isnt too hard <_<

1 is less than 5 is it not?

Also Crowbar isn't that essentially what I said?

[Crowbar]

Well it is in that 0 is technically less than 5...

..I'm not going to split hairs. >_>

[EDIT] Oh woops I misread what you said nvm